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 Post subject: The Current Situation
PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2010 11:55 pm 
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I have read many comments in the last few days concerning the recent announcement. Some were positive, especially from contributors, others were doubtful but willing to go forward, and a few were very negative and also fairly vocal about it. Although it's hard to judge the real situation based on that small sample, I think it's safe to say most non-scripters aren't very happy. They can't run their scripts for the time being and also seem to have little trust in the upcoming changes. From their point of view everything is perfect now. They visit the site, download the tool, download a script, press start and it'll play the game for them.

But it wasn't always like that. In the beginning, around August 2000 or so, EasyUO was a tiny tool that allowed clicking, pressing keys and scanning pixels, plus one more feature which set it apart: reading the character's position. This basically allowed it to automate mining quite successfully which wasn't possible previously because your char might run into a wall due to lag (everyone still had modems back then) without the script noticing.

With time, more features were added and the tool became more popular, drawing in flocks of scripters and gaining enough momentum to build a lively community. Things weren't easy, especially the language. But people made do because it was all they had, helped each other and rejoiced at every new feature that was added. As a developer, that is probably the best environment you can find yourself in. Everything you do is instantly noticed and incorporated into scripts.

It was years until OSI finally found out what was happening. I've heard the story from someone who was friends with a GM. Apparently one of them noticed a fully automated miner in all of its glory and a whole group of GMs gathered around a screen and admired what it could do and messed with it, proving it was automated.

Anyway, just as I shared EasyUO with everybody free of charge, many scripters shared their scripts with each other and indeed with anyone interested. That was the spirit back then. Because most scripts were difficult to set up (you had to place bags in exact positions etc), you almost had to be a scripter yourself to run scripts. So a lot of learning was required to get it working, but people showed real effort and were in turn helped by others. Most of all, I remember Orngrimm who used to surf the boards (and still does) while at work and jumped at any opportunity to answer a question, in German or "Denglish", often beating me by minutes.

Due to its success, EasyUO was eventually swarmed under by an influx of less knowledgeable users, turning our little community of makers into a community of users. This was deeply resented by many veterans, especially the dumb questions from people unable, unwilling or simply too lazy to learn how to script or in some cases even read and follow simple instructions. After a while, veteran scripters became so sick and tired and even outraged by the sheer stupidity of their users that they started to make their scripts truly foolproof. They did that not of their own free will but because they had no choice apart from keeping their scripts private.

A PSL and rating system were built to support them in their efforts. After scripts have become more stable and complaints have died down, the next problem was all the leechers who downloaded scripts but never even bothered to rate them or give thanks and usually only registered when something didn't work and you had to PM or even email them the solution. In a misguided effort to stop leeching, our site designer introduced the "scriptbit" system. Search the boards if you're interested. All those posts are still there.

Eventually we simply had to give up and accept the new realities: Somewhere along the way this has turned from a scripting community into a takeaway service. And I appear to be the chef indeed. Although in reality, I haven't done very much to improve EasyUO from the end user perspective since 2005. I have simply kept it up to date and happen to be the owner of the program, but the scripters have built the PSL and made all of this possible for you to enjoy.

I hope this helps you a bit to see where these things come from and why we veterans sometimes label you as leeches. I'm sure you have other things to do in your life, maybe come home after work to your wife and kids and want to play some UO without breaking your index finger. That's all very nice and I'm the last person who would begrudge you that enjoyment. After all I built this tool so it gets used. But right now you're standing in my way. And you're not helping this community at all. You give nothing back to us, taking things for granted just because they've been this way for a long time, becoming hugely dependent on them and then blaming me for tampering with this perfectly convenient system without which UO becomes unplayable for you (and yes of course you can't script!). I'm probably not without fault here, it's just the way things go and I don't see any easy way in retrospect how we could have saved our little community the way it was.

But Lord do I want those days back when I could release a new feature and everyone was like HOLYSH*T! I cater to scripters, scripters cater to users. I never made this tool for you! And I'm sometimes completely surprised when total strangers start rioting when I'm only trying to improve the situation for my guys. And they used to complain a lot about the old EUO language. The Codename Alexandria project failed because of missing file and path support. There are so many examples. That's why I set out to revamp the system. I simply never expected to get so completely ignored and all my work rendered irrelevant. It's true, you never asked me to do this work. I know you think it's already perfect. BUT THIS ISN'T ABOUT YOU. It's about the scripters. Imagine there are people who enjoy scripting. The problem is they won't switch as long as all their users are still clinging to that relic. And I end up doing all the work myself without any kind of productive environment.

I'm sure other people who have tried to build a scripting engine for UO have felt the same. It's nearly impossible to compete with that download-click-and-forget feature of the current setup. It simply never occured to me my old tool would steal my audience. Even EA feels it apparently. They've added that wonderful detection of theirs and now they can't ban users because EUO and the PSL are an integral part of the game. Can't even make users switch to a different client if EUO doesn't support it. And how considerate of them to add OpenEUO detection in client 7.0.9.0 and above. Didn't even bother to hide it so a blind man wouldn't see it. I wonder if they realize that should I screw this up they're going to feel it deeply, maybe even to the point where they can pack their bags and leave.

Some of you have suggested I should have given warning in advance. Well I did. In April. And I said users shouldn't worry as there'll be an emulator and everything ready for them. Which was basically begging to be ignored some more. Yesterday I was seriously considering whether I should give up, turning my back on EUO. I'm sure some of you would love that... how did it go: "Someone is going to update easyuo for you, dont worry, you will get either hack or someone close to you will leak the code and it will be another group, hopefully open that will keep it updated." Really can't see why anyone wouldn't like them leeches.

Anyway, the situation right now seems to be productive, although in a very subdued manner. Should I accept the suggestion of updating EUO 1.5 one last time there's a chance things will slide back the way they were. On the other hand, if things would remain productive all the same then I'm torturing end users needlessly. Keep in mind, I already did this last April and it didn't work. So despite what I said yesterday I will update it for one last month to clear the air and simply hope it won't all go down the drain a second time.

All in all I must say I find this really really sad. A sad day when a developer must drag users kicking and screaming to the next version. I'm sure we can all agree on that, if for different reasons.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 12:26 am 
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Cheffe, all of us truly do appreciate your hard work. So, for what it's worth, here's one user saying "Thanks". =)


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 12:44 am 
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Kinda disagree. Short and sweet, Not going to lose any users worth keeping by stoping support for EasyUO.

Then again I'm kinda a jerk that way.

I lurve you Cheffe!

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Haestyphos
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 1:44 am 
Thanks for good news Cheffe, you made my day :wink:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 1:44 am 
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Legendary Scripter
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Joined: 10/23/2004 19:22
Posts: 1218

Three thoughts:
1. To comment on your last though... not to go on the offensive (that's really not my position), but no one would be dragged kicking and screaming if the next version was functioning. You made a comment a while back about how Microsoft isn't support Windows 2000. True, they're not... but that's only because Windows XP (limited support), Windows Vista (fully supported), and Windows 7 (fully supported), have all replaced it, as functioning (though slightly buggy) software.
I guess all I'm saying is that if the emulator was complete and variables available, I doubt half of the b**ching would be going on... but to be honest, who cares if there is excessive b**ching? Which leads me to:

2. I don't necessarily agree (though this thread was fairly convincing) with your decision to suddenly stop support (fine with the idea of stopping support in general though), but it's your software, do what you want with it. But I would like to say:
To all you pathetic, whining, leachers who claim this garbage about "having to work and come home" and just wanting to play the game on other's work, I say shut it. You think we don't have lives too? You act like we're a bunch of shut-ins living on welfare and getting our jolly's from hacking Hannah Montana's website or something. We're people just like you, with lives, just like you. We learned how to script because we were interested in doing something and didn't want to ask others to do our work for us. Don't BS me and tell me it's too hard or that your "not a programmer." The script is just logic, it's not hard, and you can learn, if you're not too freaking lazy. Be thankful for the FREE crap your getting and stop giving the poor victim sob story. Disagree with the decision if you want, but don't play the world's tiniest violin and expect applause.

3. (Back to cheffe...) Practically any project that phases software out sets a firm date for when it's going to be no longer supported. Again, your software, your call, but I think a clearly set date would be appreciated, and would shut most people up. I'd suggest updating EUO, and setting a short timeline. When the timeline expires, any further patches will not be supported, and the community as a whole can't blame you for not giving them a chance to be ready.

Those are my thoughts... take 'em or leave 'em.
Gonzo

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If you need support with one of my scripts, please post it in that script's thread AND PM me. I can't promise support if you don't do both (it's the only way I know a script needs my attention).

Thanks!


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 2:07 am 
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I have to say Thanks! Becuase of your efforts Cheffe, over the past six years I have had the opportunity to construct usable logical program scripting in a game. I have been able to use the knowledge in my proffessional life. Do what you feel is the best for you, and thanks for what you have given me.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 2:56 am 
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Cheffe you know I was one of the scripters clinging to EUO but I have walked through the door to OEUO and I don't intend to walk back. I say close that door and lock it. The scripters will survive this and the appreciative users will follow. The leechers be damned.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 4:16 am 
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I have come around to the fact that EUO is no more.

I havent logged into the game since, despite having upgraded 3 accounts to high seas, I kinda heavily relied on EUO for fishing.

I do want OEUO to succeed. And therefore I have decided if I want to see it succeed I am going to do something about it.

Is it possible for someone with little scripting knowledge to learn LUA and write scripts for OEUO with it? I don't want spoon feeding as I am willing to learn to do it all myself, but if someone could offer a series of links to point me in the right direction - to take me from beginner to intermediate in scripting skills, LUA and OEUO, I might actually be able to contribute something to this society.

Edit: I found the link dont worry - Smoke me a kipper, I'll be back for breakfast!

http://www.easyuo.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=43602

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 5:12 am 
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Excellent post Cheffe, I wish I could say I feel your pain, but that's not going to happen.

Instead I will say, for me at least, LUA and OEUO is what's going to happen. And because of it, I'll learn. Because of you Cheffe, I'll learn. I've learned many things from many people regarding EUO and script writing, but now I see myself learning again how to adapt. I'll learn LUA and from there other programming languages that I otherwise would never have. I've learned through you Cheffe and the EUO and SUO sites, that communities are what keep people like us together, and learning from each other.

I thank you for all your years of continued support of this tool, and your support staff here as well. As far as I'm concerned, I'm focused on OEUO, and will only use EUOX perhaps as a comparison tool, or fallback on something I may forget.

I will learn.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 5:26 am 
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I think you have correctly identified the two types of users of your products.

The scripters should be using OEUO exclusively and have huge libraries of common scripts already written including a solid emulator to run the old EUO scripts.

Yet, as long as OEUO has been available, there hasn't been a simple bandage script until this week. Why?

Many people applaud the OEUO only scenario, yet there's so little available for it. Why? Basic stuff like moving items, bandage, potions, taming, crafting, etc.... Yet very little of that exists. Again I ask why?

Users simply come and d-load a script they need, plug it and play it. They are not the people that OEUO is for. But, they don't care what is used to make their scripts work. Once OEUO is solid and there's a good emulator, then users will just switch over and begin using OEUO.

I think the success of OEUO lays completely on the "scripters" to begin writing/converting scripts over so the people who use the scripts will begin to migrate over.

Thanks for doing this Cheffe, I hope the support from those who can help will follow for OEUO.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 6:28 am 
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Well, I can tell some things you said, Cheffe, were in response to the comments I made on my *cough* previous user name *cough*. You and I both know you made the right decision.

Quote:
To all you pathetic, whining, leachers who claim this garbage about "having to work and come home" and just wanting to play the game on other's work, I say shut it. You think we don't have lives too?


First of all, I do know how to write scripts and almost every script I use is my own. I taught myself EUO and never bothered you holy, god-like veterans of the language. Perhaps us sad, pathetic, whining, "leachers" as you call us don't contribute because our help is obviously not wanted. Just because I don't post on forums or submit scripts doesn't mean I haven't worked just as hard as you on EUO.

Secondly, if you don't want your scripts being downloaded and used by "leachers" then don't submit them. I don't know anyone who gives stuff away free and then gets pissed when people take it.

Again, none of you care what the "leachers" think so I guess I'm just posting this for myself. I do enjoy scripting with EUO, which is the whole reason I was compelled to post yesterday. But this isn't about me, it's about the scripters...


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 6:40 am 
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Cheffe-
I thank you as both a script writer and user. I still didnt several particular 1.5 features under my belt but I could write some really nice stuff regardless. This deadline you have now posted will allow me to keep scripting etc, enhancing my gameplay while I gear up to transfer to lua as well as possible. I admit lua has not went well for me so far but I will get enough down to make some decent scripts in time. At least now there is not going to be a deadzone in between. You have motivated me sir while allowing me certain perks in the mean time.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 6:48 am 
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euo817 wrote:
Secondly, if you don't want your scripts being downloaded and used by "leachers" then don't submit them. I don't know anyone who gives stuff away free and then gets pissed when people take it.


I guess some of this depends on one's own definition of a leech. For me it is someone that takes from the community and gives absolutely nothing in return. There are many users that download and use scripts and never write a line of code. That alone doesn't make them a leech in my opinion. But when they do so and never do any of the following: rate a script, say thank you, make posts, read forum rules before making posts, then yes they are a leech. They are not a part of the community.

It's no different from society where some people never work, never pay taxes, but still show up in a soup line demanding to be served and not being thankful when they are.

As for scripters giving away their work for free and getting pissed when people take it, I don't IF they are grateful. I have 2 reasons for scripting. One is the enjoyment of making my character do as I wish. The second is to fill a need for the community. Just look at the last 2 approved scripts for EasyUO to see what I mean about filling needs. I love to see the download counter go up on my scripts, but I love it even more when people rate my scripts, provide feedback, and most of show their appreciation for my effort.

Which category do you fall in? Are you part of the community? Do you wish to be?


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 6:49 am 
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I know you're doing this grudgingly, but thank you.

EUO is a large part of the UO experience for many many people. Some actively write and share scripts. Some write scripts that they don't share for one reason or another. Some can't or won't script and just use scripts that others have made available. Each one of those groups is a bit happier today.

I know that it's popular to bash the leeches because it's thought that they don't contribute, but that's not entirely correct. I submit to you that the leeches, which seem to be the largest part of the EUO community, are what have made EUO as popular as it is. The word of mouth from that group may have brought you quite a few people that actually code quite a bit. I learned about EUO that way, and I've written a lot of scripts that make my UO time and more fun.

Just a thought. Consider it, ignore it or deride it as you will.

EUO has a wealth of scripts contributed by many over the course of years. That shouldn't be abandoned or relegated to a conversion queue that may or may not even get to them. Some of those authors may not even be here anymore to help in the process.

This wasn't like the switch to EUOX, where their was some grumbling because some code needed to be changed. This was more dramatic, and so was the response. It's not difficult to understand why. I know you want to move forward, and I think having a working emulator would have considerably limited the amount of dissent you saw.

At any rate, thanks for your efforts for all these years. They have been, and will continue to be appreciated.


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